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Professional Indemnity Insurance

Discussion in 'Australia' started by Cameron, Jun 2, 2015.

  1. Cameron

    Cameron Well-Known Member

  2. APodC

    APodC Active Member

  3. APodC

    APodC Active Member

    We hear that Guild has contacted podiatric surgeons to tell them that Guild will no longer offer cover. Insurance House is offering a product for surgeons as part of their commitment to the profession.
     
  4. Simone Lee

    Simone Lee Active Member

    After the terrible experience i have had with insurance house i will not recommend them ever and have switched to guild. Cheap is not usually better and I am potentially going to lose my house .
    There are lots of crazys out there who like to make claims and insurance house have clauses in their policies in some matters where they get to decide if they WANT to cover you. Great for them, not for us. Read the policy carefully of you decide to go with them and buyer beware. .
     
  5. APodC

    APodC Active Member

    Hi Simone,

    I've recently become aware of your situation and have looked at both the Guild and Insurance House policies and neither would have given you cover. I'm waiting for Insurance House to come back to me to tell me what options there are for coverage. I'll give you a call once I've heard back.

    Regards,
    Damian.
     
  6. Simone Lee

    Simone Lee Active Member

    Aon does. I had all my insurances with insurance house and it was because of my employee who is a myotherapist that i have pulled all my insurances from insurance house. So AON would have covered in this instance. Again, is it worth going CHEAP for protection? Each to their own.
     
  7. APodC

    APodC Active Member

    Hi Simone, I followed up with Insurance House again today who tell me they've not rejected a claim for a podiatrist in eight years.

    Insurance House couldn't discuss the details of any associated claim with me without privacy consent but they're happy to go into the details if the claimant will give consent. I'd like to be able to get to the bottom of it as we are somewhat surprised and any claim that our members aren't fully covered is taken extremely seriously by the APodC. This is difficult to do without getting the full facts.
     
  8. surfboy

    surfboy Active Member

    Hi Simone,
    Very sorry to hear of your situation. Perhaps you could please tell us all what happened? I too have had crazies have a go at me over the years and Guild was excellent to deal with, their legal support was second to none. Guild showed me in a very stressful time what a professional organisation they are and for this reason and my experience I can only recommend Guild and their law firm Meridian Lawyers, excellent and reliable support when you get a crazy having a go at you.
     
  9. Simone Lee

    Simone Lee Active Member

    Hi again, this situation is not directly towards podiatry. My myotherapist employee (also husband ) has had a nutter make an accusation that he touched her inappropriately. We have had all our insurance with insurance house. So my prof indem and public liability, his and my business insurance. When the accusation was made insurance house provided a legal person to advise him to make a no comment interview and then passed him off to a law firm and that was the end of the support. They have a clause that if there is an accusation of a sexual nature then they wipe their hands. AON do cover you for this unless you are eventually found guilty. Guild do not . I am amazed that one of the most common situations in the health care industry are basically not covered. Anyone could come in a say what they want and you are stuffed. The cops never spoke to me and i actually happened to be on the desk that day as someone was sick. Her supposed evidence is that she told people about it. I also have her on camera entering and leaving and she did not looked distressed or out of the ordinary. We could go cheaper to magistrates court first but were advised by about 4 legal people that that will most likely mean a guilty versictverdict due to the cinicism of geelong magistrates and that our best chance is in county with a judge and jury. Hence the higher cost with no course for recompense if found not guilty. Geelong is small and i have spent 10 years building a reputation as a great professional clinic. Police have had no problem trashing that to the local high school and tafe and have named my clinic as a dangerous place to go for minors even though the psycho is an adult. He will potentially go on the sex offenders list if found guilty. I would have thought our unsurance company would have protected us however they do not and i will be at least getting him future insurance that does cover it and should consider for myself as this has happened to pods aswell. I did look at compensation for damages to my business reputation and was advised by a lawyer i employed to read my contract that there was no way though insurance house that i could get any compensation or could make any
    claim. Take it as you will but i will never recommend them ever as this has really been aweful and something i never saw coming. Although its too late now, my cover will be protecting me in all aspects or its not worth anything.
     
  10. Simone Lee

    Simone Lee Active Member

    Also if the apoda push this cover knowing that it is inadequate i will not be renewing my membership with them either. They should be making deals that serve us best in our professions and business and not looking for a cheap and nasty deal. Or just stay out of it. Stick with association matters and we will decide what insurance is best for us. Unless the association will pay our legal fees when the insurance they recommend for us fails to cover us. Then, sure, i will sign on
     
  11. surfboy

    surfboy Active Member

    Holy hell, that is terrifying.
    The idea that our professional insurance and associated legal costs insurance ($100K with Guild) will not cover us in the event of a patient sexual harassment/assault allegation is frightening and appalling.
    Guild states that the legal costs insurance will cover "disciplinary investigations etc", is not alleged sexual harassment part of this?!!!!
    This is scary stuff folks, as Simone is finding one could end up losing their house!!!
    This is an emergency issue which someone needs to look into!!
     
  12. Pod66

    Pod66 Member

    Hi Simone,

    Thanks for sharing ,you are in a difficult position and each pod reading may now rethink their practice protocols to minimise the "crazies" risk. I agree with Surferboy, this is scary and important stuff as-

    PI is a mandatory requirement for registration with Ahpras mandate to maintain standards and protect the community.

    Is the council putting our eggs in the right basket ? especially when they are asking us to support the IH decision of a master policy and seem to be giving insurance advice like an agent.

    Is Ahpra / Podiatry Board of Australia happy that a master policy provides sufficient, secure cover or are they not concerned if the burden is disproportionally on the practitioner ?
    Medicos have stated this as a reason for decline in GP- lack of support by Aphra and the AMA - see recent Medical Forum mag.

    As in ......Simones case insurance doesn't cover the worst case scenario. I think that is what we all have insurance for.
     
  13. surfboy

    surfboy Active Member

    See this link below to an insurance company that insures Doctors in Australia (but not allied health professionals).

    IT CLEARLY STATES THAT DOCTORS INSURED ARE COVERED FOR "ALLEGATIONS OF SEXUAL MISCONDUCT OR CRIMINAL MATTERS". - So why on earth is this important coverage absent from insurance policies available to Podiatrists?!

    http://www.mdanational.com.au/apply-now/medical-practitioners.aspx
     
  14. Pod66

    Pod66 Member

    Thanks SB- guess it is all about no's and cost.

    ?What type of cover do we actually need as our scope of practise moves up the leg-

    The surgeons must be feeling a little exposed as they look like hot potatoes after some recent high profile cases. Premiums must be hiking , they already make general pod insurance look like peanuts.

    Who will cover the relevant but real risks as the profession develops- at least inline with dentists and GP's.

    Feeling more unsure!
     
  15. surfboy

    surfboy Active Member

    And look at this insurer for Physiotherapists through CGU insurance. It clearly states at section 11 that Sexual allegations are covered.
    http://www.physiosure.com/faqs.asp

    So why not for Podiatrists??
     
  16. Pod66

    Pod66 Member

    ? Maybe podiatrists aren't generally putting themselves at risk - few claims
    or the no of claims for physio/ gp's is really high!
    How much is the physio and medico cost for this type of cover?
     
  17. surfboy

    surfboy Active Member

    not at risk? Look what's happening to poor Simone and her partner. It can happen to any practitioner and I personally would like to be covered for the worse possible scenario, this is what insurance is for.

    Check Australian story tonight, http://www.abc.net.au/austory/ "Suddenly one summer" and what happened to the poor School teacher !!!
     
  18. Simone Lee

    Simone Lee Active Member

    AON provide this type of cover AND the premium isnt that high although
     
  19. Pod66

    Pod66 Member

    Thanks Simone- will look into their policy-
     
  20. surfboy

    surfboy Active Member

    The Australian Psychological Society (APS) endorses only AON as their preferred provider. An interesting read in the link below from the APS website. Specifically, there has been "consolidation of cover for allegations involving sexual misconduct".
    Also AON provides two hours of legal advice regarding practice matters free of charge through a dedicated legal hotline. Please see below:
    https://www.psychology.org.au/membership/benefits/insurance/
     
  21. surfboy

    surfboy Active Member

    Additionally, the AON policy also offers "inquiry costs" cover equal to the limit of your selected professional indemnity amount. This means that if you have selected $5million professional indemnity cover, your inquiry costs will also be capped at $5million.
    This is a massive difference from the Guild legal inquiry costs amount which is $100,000.
    This is all listed above in the Psychology society link.
    I am seriously now considering changing to AON.
     
  22. Simone Lee

    Simone Lee Active Member

    sounds like AON is the way to go. not sure why apoda is pushing inadequate cover although I can think of a few reasons. thanks for looking into that. i am afraid I have my hands full running a business, caring for a toddler and a baby with special needs and all this legal court case crap. things have been extremely stressful to say the least.
     
  23. trevor

    trevor Active Member

    Simone,
    I do not know if this works in OZ but in California they have " Bad faith lawyers " that make their living from insurance companies that do not want to pay.
    have a look at this web site and ask your lawyer if this is an option in Geelong.
    http://www.kbklawyers.com
    two of these guys have recovered 1 billion dollars each from insurance companies like yours
     
  24. surfboy

    surfboy Active Member

    It's such a scary thought though, isn't it. And it begs me to ask the question as to what safeguards do we have in place in our clinics to protect against "nutcase" claims? In Simone's situation as described above, a young man and father is now facing very serious criminal charges in the Supreme Court, alongside a tarnished reputation.

    If all it takes to destroy our livelihoods is someone to potentially come in and make a frivolous claim, where does that leave us ??
     
  25. Pod66

    Pod66 Member

    Hi ,
    Colleagues are reporting competitive rates coming in from both Guild and Aon. Seems like it is game on as far as insurance goes- so it will be up to the individual to compare what is actually covered ..... What will you get for approx $400 for 18 months?
     
  26. APodC

    APodC Active Member

    Thank the decision lead by the APodC in consultation with the state podiatry associations which has created the most competitive PI insurance market place in 10 years. With the support of members, we plan to keep it competitive by getting the best rates in the market. We've taken the lead and everyone else is just responding to keep up! Help us to keep the market competitive by becoming a member of an APodC affiliated podiatry association.

    By supporting the master policy, it gives us the ability to work with the insurer to iron out any issues and through the APodC / Insurance House Risk Management Committee, we'll be looking to help members manage risks over time to get even better rates. If your insurance rates have dropped, support the people who lead the way rather than the copy cats.

    The current policy document is here http://www.insurancehouse.com.au/content/documents/apodc-policy-wording-2015.pdf which should also clear up any concerns about the issues raised in this thread.
     
  27. surfboy

    surfboy Active Member

    Thanks the new section regarding alleged sexual issues seems to cover what this discussion is talking about. So the policy seems sound now.
    Damien so you know which legal firm insurance house conducts their legal work through?
     
  28. APodC

    APodC Active Member

  29. trevor

    trevor Active Member

    Just been talking to Guild.
    They say that sexual molestation defence is a grey area that they may or may not cover.

    We have been with IH for several years and have also discovered that we are not covered for sexual molestation defence claims.
    I spoke to IH about adding this to our policy. They say no, they can only offer it to podiatry association members.
    How could this be?

    AHPRA requires professional indemnity insurance, what is the definition of/for professional indemnity insurance, if there is not one, there needs to be, so that all policies offered to allied health are meaningful.
     
  30. APodC

    APodC Active Member

    Hi Trevor, you've highlighted our point on getting the profession to get behind the master policy. With buying power, we get the ability to deal with insurers from a stronger position. We've lead a sudden rush around prices and that's great but long term we want to make sure we're in a position to get the best coverage at good prices. The size of the policy meant we could get it added at no cost.

    I know people get cynical but the association is owned by members and is there for members. We figured that if we focused on doing the best we could for members on insurance, more people would join. That means we can negotiate harder on insurance but also around government and insurance things that are important to the profession.
     
  31. trevor

    trevor Active Member

  32. surfboy

    surfboy Active Member

    Yes it is potentially that indeed Trevor. If it is the case
    that the insurer has denied sexual molestation insurance option to non-association members it could potentially be interpreted as a restrictive trade practice.
     
  33. Paul Bowles

    Paul Bowles Well-Known Member

    I dont believe that was the question asked - it isnt a matter of "cost" its a matter of simply adding it to a policy.

    Well you cant help but think people would be cynical when APodC stated previousy that they were being paid commissions on Podiatrists to their preferred insurance provider regardless of whether they were members of APodC/Affiliate associations or not! I don't believe anyone has answered my question regarding this deal from APodC on PA still - What exactly are APodC getting off this new insurer in terms of financial benefit? Sorry for me being cynical but there is no way APodC would have left thier previous insurer (who was paying them commissions on even non members!) to go to a different insurer with the only benefit being better member cover and competitive premiums! Seriously?

    Also cant help but be cynical when an insurer offers "members" things on a policy such as "sexual molestation" cover and tells "non members" who have been with them for years "they cant do it for them until they become members of an organisation".

    Seriously APodC? You cannot see an issue with this?
     
  34. APodC

    APodC Active Member

    Hi Paul, I'm glad you've raised this again so I can go on record in the clearest possible way. The APodC made this decision to benefit members. We chose to drop the vast majority of commissions to benefit members. We now receive $10 per policy which is declared on the membership form. If we get enough membership growth this year, we aim to remove that commission next year. Insurance house then pays for any promotion they choose to engage in like any other supplier however there's no minimum amount they need to spend under the agreement.

    As I've said before, there was no secret commission here. It was declared at all times.

    In terms of coverage, we've taken out a single policy that covers each individual member. It's a policy for over two thousand members that's worth hundreds of thousands of dollars in premium. This gives us the ability to negotiate with the underwriter on what's included in that policy on behalf of members to ensure they're protected. That's why we're here.

    Association members pay their fees for a variety of reasons including that we work on their behalf on these sorts of things; which is what we did here. The people at the APodC have done a huge amount of work in recent years to develop strong governance processes, to remove conflicts of interest, to consult with stakeholders, to focus on our strategic plan, to develop clearer policy and most importantly to focus on members. I'm excited about the new APodC direction and where it'll take us and the members.
     
  35. trevor

    trevor Active Member

    Why are IH refusing to add the extra coverage to their policy?
     
  36. APodC

    APodC Active Member

    Hi Trevor, my sense is they will update their policy at some point and when they do, they'll probably extend the cover. As our policy is quite a large policy, we were able to get it addressed sooner than individual pods.
     
  37. trevor

    trevor Active Member

    both policies are the "ProRisk Medical Malpractice Combined Liability Insurance
    Policy – V02.14 "
    The APODC version has some changes and attachments.
     
  38. Paul Bowles

    Paul Bowles Well-Known Member



    You could have addressed it when I asked it months ago but chose not to.


    Well it has been secret because you hadn't answered it until now (well done for finally taking the plunge) and secondly I do not believe that it was widely known, regardless of how or where it was written in the fine print, that APODC was getting commission on Podiatrists signing up to your previous preferred insurer even though they weren't members!

    Regardless if its a good policy, the fine print works for Podiatrists and APodC have done something that directly benefits members - well done!
     
  39. surfboy

    surfboy Active Member

    Yes I for one did not realise that you were receiving a commission from my guild policy as a non member. This was not transparent.

    In such a small profession, I think it's both unfair and dangerous that non members of the APODC are currently prohibited from obtaining (alleged) sexual molestation cover through IH. Simone's example in this thread clearly spells out the danger of not being covered for such matters.
     
  40. surfboy

    surfboy Active Member

    I feel that I am being almost blackmailed to join the association simply so that I can obtain this sexual molestation coverage in the IH policy. - This is not fair.
     
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