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Self education expenses and tax changes

Discussion in 'Australia' started by surfboy, Apr 14, 2013.

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Will the cap on tax deductions for work-related self-education expenses impact upon your professiona

  1. YES

    84.0%
  2. NO

    16.0%
  1. surfboy

    surfboy Active Member


    Members do not see these Ads. Sign Up.
    What are everyone's thoughts on this?! As of 1 July next year, the maximum amount of tax deduction that can be claimed for self-education expenses is just $2000 per person. - This was previously uncapped.

    Well, considering the costs involved in our ongoing MANDATORY CPD requirements, it looks like "goodnight irene" to any expensive CPD activity.

    Careful everyone, that $2000 adds up pretty quick.

    So no more tax deductions for expensive masters courses, overseas conferences, geez -- even the annual conference cost is several hundred dollars ?

    :eek::eek::eek:



    Canberra 13 April 2013. The Government will better target work related self-education expense deductions as part of a package of reforms to make a down-payment on the National Plan for School Improvement.

    The Government values the investments people make in their own skills and recognises the benefits of a tax deduction for work related self-education expenses. However, under current arrangements these deductions are unlimited and provide an opportunity for people to enjoy significant private benefits at taxpayers' expense.

    Education expenses include formal qualifications and associated tuition fees, textbooks, stationery and travel expenses and also conferences, seminars and self-organised study tours.

    The Government will retain the incentive to invest in work related self-education through tax deductions and will introduce a cap on expenses to ensure the system remains fair.

    From 1 July 2014, work related self-education expenses will be more fairly targeted through an annual cap of $2,000 a person.
     
  2. Paul Bowles

    Paul Bowles Well-Known Member

    I'm no expert on tax so not too sure what impact or not that may have - however currently if you attend 1 x conference as well as do 1 x CPR update as well as do some random things like read some journal articles, take a student on placement, give some talks to local GP's you more than satisfy the requirements for AHPRA at a cost way less than $2000

    Conference - $700
    CPR - $200
    Other activities - FREE

    I really don't know what you are complaining about there? $900AUD per year to maintain professional registration is really a pittance....

    As for ongoing medical education in the form of Masters degrees or PhD or Professional Doctorates I am no tax expert but I think you will find ways to use these to your advantage as a working clinician tax wise! Maybe get a better accountant!
     
  3. Tuckersm

    Tuckersm Well-Known Member

    Surfboy,

    There will probably be an easy work around (for any one employed at least) where the costs of self education would be salary packaged, and therefore paid by the employer out of pre tax earnings. Those in private practice, could include it as a business expense, so another probable work around
     
  4. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    Articles:
    8
    Outcry over changes to CPD tax
     
  5. antipodean

    antipodean Active Member

    Convenient that A POD C Sydney conference is June the end of this financial year then
     
  6. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    Articles:
    8
    Anger grows over CPD tax plans
     
  7. Paul Bowles

    Paul Bowles Well-Known Member

    The Sydney Diabetic Foot Conference a week earlier is a much better and cheaper bet ;) Huge international contingent...
     
  8. surfboy

    surfboy Active Member

    Thanks a lot Craig. Please keep us updated on this very important issue.
    You're missing the point Paul.
     
  9. LuckyLisfranc

    LuckyLisfranc Well-Known Member

    Say goodbye to attending an overseas conference ever again...

    Would like to hear the oppositions views on this proposal.

    LL
     
  10. Paul Bowles

    Paul Bowles Well-Known Member

    Do tell?
     
  11. antipodean

    antipodean Active Member

    One point is that $2000 is a low water mark with a rising tide of mandatory CPD requirements also $2000 quantum probably won't be indexed. I tend to have higher spends alternate years ie national conf biannual and state based events other years.

    I'm sure diabetic conference will be awesome but broader content range offered at national conf more beneficial to most pods......not to mention awesome trade display trinkets.
     
  12. Paul Bowles

    Paul Bowles Well-Known Member

    Education doesnt need to be expensive to be of excellent quality! The CPD requirements currently are ridiculously easy and cheap to achieve - I'd love to know what "rising tide" you are referring to.


    Which is normal - however national and state conferences are not the only way to obtain CPD in Australia (which was my point above). There are literally hundreds of events yearly which can be counted towards CPD. In saying that you think the national and state conferences run by your association are going to get cheaper? I doubt it. As a member who pays a yearly fee, why are we charged so much for national and state conferences?


    Broader? Have you seen the conference program for Sydney in June? You may be surprised about the broad aspect to topics discussed at Diabetic Foot conferences - from footwear, to wound care, to pharmacology to surgery to biomechanics and plantar pressures - not to mention the ability to network with other medical professionals other than Podiatrists. Granted the "social activities" probably arent comparible, but lets be serious for a minute - what do you go to a conference for - the beers or the education? ;)

    Either way it digresses from the original topic which was about costs. There are options for costs and education.


    If you like pens and the little foam feet then sure...
     
  13. antipodean

    antipodean Active Member

    Paul the rising tide refers to the Medical experience, initially requirement targets not overly onerous but CPD requirements keep increasing over time, what is reasonable for CPD expectations is a whole other new thread, but I don't think many pods would view conference attendance as a networking booze up or tax deductible perk.
    I don't think I was in anyway negative on the Diabetic conf merely indicating that a wider range range of aspects / issues / topics will be covered at the pod conference. New tax changes will mean people will be less likely to go to both in the future.
    If the CPD requirements are not balanced there will come a point where some great part time pods especially those raising kids or working in isolated parts of the Country may have to rethink continuing work in Podiatry.
    Meanwhile in off topic land, the trade display section many pods find helpful to look at new products rather than picking out things in catalogues. I was being somewhat tongue in cheek about the trinkets although gratis footwear from the last conference was not that much of a burden, Likewise I am sure the sample of the latest silver activated dressing you get will be put to good use.
     
  14. Paul Bowles

    Paul Bowles Well-Known Member

    What was this thread about again?

    "Self education expenses and tax changes"

    :D
     
  15. trevor

    trevor Active Member

    Sydney Conference
    Standard Registrations
    New and unpaid Early Bird registrations received from Friday, 5 April 2013 to Tuesday, 21 May 2013
    Member Registration $1,260.00 $1,280.00
    Non-Member Registration $2,520.00 $2,540.00
    Student Registration $580.00 $600.00
    Concession Member Registration $755.00 $775.00
    Member Day Registration $630.00 $650.00
    Non-Member Day Registration $1,260.00 $1,280.00

    Plus accomodation and travel expenses.

    Yes, members get a discount but it is equal to the cost of the membership.

    If you are a serious health professional you need to attend national conferences, here or overseas. You cannot do that for $700.00
     
  16. Ros Kidd

    Ros Kidd Active Member

    Trevor, the Sydney Diabetic Foot Conference is (from memory) $550. Top notch international line up of speakers as Paul says. I assure some very serious health professionals will be there.
    Hope to see you there.
    Ros
     
  17. Paul Bowles

    Paul Bowles Well-Known Member

    If you are a serious health professional I don't think you would be worried about the cost of continuing medical education!
     
  18. trevor

    trevor Active Member

    Paul,
    Great to see that you are treating this so seriously.
    Perhaps you can tell us all about how you fund your own continuing education. Do you allocate a set amount, or do you select a "must go to" conference somewhere in the world and spend what ever it takes.
    When and where was the last international conference that you attended.
    How much did you spend all up for the trip. What was the tax saving?

    For an international conference I normally budget $2500 for airfares. $250 per night for hotels and $1500 for conference fees, allowing 10 days away for a 5 day conference. (Plus meals and taxis etc)
    Remember 10 days out of the office is also a cost.
    How do you select a conference? Cost <$500. reputation, location, content, your need or special interest, other.

    If you are spending say $7 to $10K and you lose your tax concession, where is this extra money coming from.

    How will you find this money?
    Or are you proposing that we all just do the freebies to make up our hours each year?


    We all await your pearls of wisdom.
     
  19. Paul Bowles

    Paul Bowles Well-Known Member

    Trevor - don't confuse the arguments here. I'm not the font of all knowledge and I don't appreciate the sarcasm online (it just doesn't translate well). What am I not taking seriously exactly?

    I work as a Podiatrist to fund my education - I assume you also earn an income of some kind as a medical professional and that's how you live/fund continuing medical education? I don't do it for a tax "write off" or "saving", I do it because I want to be more highly educated and to satisfy my professional requirements.

    As I pointed out above - education to maintain professional registration in Australia is hardly a huge expense - I just do not see what the ridiculous argument here is actually all about. If public sector Podiatrists who earn a fraction of their private sector colleagues can do it - why can't we all?

    Frankly (and this is straight to the point) I am sick and tired of hearing Podiatrists whinge, bitch and moan about education - both the fact they HAVE to do it yearly AND the fact it costs money. GET OVER IT!

    I've heard it for years as an academic, for years as a clinician, for years as an education provider with PORTAL Education - and its just hogwash. There is absolutely and utterly no excuse not to further educate yourself to the minimum standards of the AHRPRA requirements or to above these standards to your personal requirements.

    There is so much education available to us currently ranging from FREE to thousands of dollars.

    Whats this argument about exactly again? TAX savings????? Seriously? I'm sure your accountant is smart enough to find you the ways of claiming any education expense you want in some way shape or form regardless of whatever the government says......
     
  20. surfboy

    surfboy Active Member

    Wow. I am just astounded by your ridiculous approach to this important issue, Paul. To carry on some argument that you are selflessly pursuing costly professional training without any intention of claiming a tax deduction, is ludicrous and dangerous. To furthermore suggest that one's accountant may be smart enough to find ways of claiming any education expense you want in any way shape or form regardless of whatever the government says, beggars belief. Are you suggesting that practitioners should engage in tax evasion?! For goodness sake man!!!
     
  21. surfboy

    surfboy Active Member

    Ok everyone, news time. The Australian Medical Association (AMA) is fighting this issue with the Government. And we can really thank our doctor colleagues for their assistance, as the tax changes affect us all in health.

    Check the AMA main website please: www.ama.com.au


    01/05/2013

    AMA President, Dr Steve Hambleton, said today that the Government’s proposed changes to tax deductions for work-related self-education expenses would have a devastating effect on the ability of doctors to improve their medical knowledge and skills through their training years and with professional development throughout their careers.

    An AMA online poll has received more than 4200 responses from concerned doctors, with 98 per cent stating that the changes would seriously impair their professional development as a doctor.

    Hundreds of doctors have provided comments explaining how the changes would affect them personally and the impact on their patients [examples attached].

    Dr Hambleton said the policy is another example of the Government announcing a major change without consultation with the people affected by the policy.

    “It is a matter of policy now, consult later,” Dr Hambleton said.

    “I don’t think the Government has thought through the impact of these changes on doctors and a whole range of other professionals who must continually update their skills and knowledge throughout their careers, at their own expense.

    “Doctors must learn new about new technologies, surgical techniques, treatments, and pharmaceuticals if they are to provide the best possible care to save lives and improve quality of life for their patients.

    “Australia has one of the most rigorous systems of medical training in the world, incorporating robust accreditation arrangements.

    “Doctors who are in training programs must meet strict program prerequisites including ongoing assessment, examination and participation in specific courses related to technical and professional expertise.

    “Feedback from doctors shows that they can spend many thousands of dollars each year undertaking mandatory courses and professional development to equip them with essential skills in caring for patients.

    “Doctors must also travel both within Australia and overseas to learn about the latest medical research and innovations, innovative surgery techniques, and advances in overall patient care.

    “Rural and remote doctors will be hit hard by the changes because they are unable to access the training they need locally.

    “The Government's policy will hit junior doctors, salaried doctors, GPs and other specialists alike and is simply not in the public interest.

    “It will create a huge disincentive for doctors to pursue specialised education that benefits the whole community.

    “The AMA is calling on the Government to reverse this decision.

    “While the Treasurer has assured the AMA that there will be a consultation process, the AMA believes that the Government needs to revise its starting point for negotiation – a $2000 cap defies reality.”

    Comments from the coalface – doctors speak out about the proposed changes

    “As an Infectious Diseases Physician in an area that is ever changing, the proposed limits make it impossible to self-fund further education. Given the largest conferences in the Infectious Diseases area are overseas and involve travel to either Europe or the USA, there is no possibility of attendance within the proposed cap on expenses, which makes it impossible to keep up to date. I support the AMA's campaign against this cap. It WILL influence my vote at the next election. I will be considering all parties’ policy on this when deciding my vote.”

    “I work in private practice in regional Australia in a psychiatric sub-specialty. This is going to make it even harder for doctors in private practice who don't get paid CPD time to attend training. It will additionally disadvantage rural and regional Australia doctors, as travel to training is the norm for us. Training opportunities not only assist in maintaining currency of practice but also form the basis for important collegial relationships that we may not have access to in small centres. These collegial relationships often form the basis for referral on for complex patients and informal/formal support for doctors in rural/regional areas.”

    “As a surgical trainee, our training fees are approximately $6000 dollars alone. In addition, we are required to attend numerous courses that range from $1000 - $4000 each. They are often held interstate or even overseas and the travel and accommodation costs incurred can run into the thousands. We also have several compulsory examinations that cost several thousands of dollars each. The proposed changes coupled with the enforced reduction in overtime will be financially devastating for junior doctors who wish to develop their skills and obtain further qualifications.”

    “As a surgical trainee, $2000 does not even begin to cover the expenses associated with training. That would perhaps cover the College fees. On top of that are 4-5 mandatory RACS courses, at about $2000 each plus travel and accommodation. Fees to sit exams are at least $1000 each. Registration fees for an international conference are around $2000, notwithstanding international airfares and accommodation. Granted education reform is important but surely this is robbing Peter to pay Paul.”

    “As a psychiatric registrar, my College fees, lecture program fees and exam fees far exceed $2000 a year without even taking into account textbooks, seminars, conference fees and so on. Given that psychiatrists are in short supply already it is foolish to further increase the barriers.”

    “Remote doctors are required to keep their credentialling and skills up to date in many fields. The impossibly low restriction proposed will seriously impact remote medicine.”

    “I am a junior prevocational doctor in training (PGY2). I have already spent almost $5000 this year on just 2 courses to further upskill myself for the workplace (APLS and DCH). Each course cost well over $2000 each, plus the costs associated with travel and accommodation as I am working in a regional area! This proposed $2000 PD cap is ludicrous and would definitely make it impossible to attain and maintain the skills and knowledge required for our day to day work, let alone the expenses involved with working towards a specialist qualification especially for doctors working in regional and rural Australia.”

    “As a specialist trainee, College trainee fees alone exceed $2000 annually plus we are required to attend intensive training courses during our training, and sit multiple exams, and purchase resources to aid our study and preparation for these exams. Annually I spend more then $6000 for training purposes and over $10,000 in a year with College exams, plus if I want to attend additional education during training such as conferences or special interest meetings this expense is even more. This is compounded when training in a regional centre, which I was for my College’s primary examination, as there are additional travel and accommodation costs for sitting exams and preparation courses. Even with our current system of making these expenses tax deductible, a trainee still spends a significant portion of their income on training related expenses, making this even greater with the capped PD expenses. We will see trainees put under financial stress for the duration of their training.”

    “This is terrible news for any doctor practising in a rural area. CPD activities for specialists are usually only available in big cities or overseas. If the Government wants to encourage specialists to move to peripheral areas then this is NOT the way to do it. More time away from practice at a higher cost will ensure less participation in educational activities. Conference venues, hotels, transport and food and beverage industry will all suffer. Surely this results in less tax revenue coming back to the Government in the end.”

    “As an academic and specialist clinician, I take the role of undertaking cutting edge medical research and maintaining the highest level of knowledge in my field of expertise seriously. This is only achieved by attending top rated international medical conferences and by contributing as a committee member to national and international societies and journal editorial boards. These attendances and contributions come at a personal cost in time and effort and absence from family, and at a financial cost. The latter includes the cost of attending international meetings plus loss of private practice income. To cap tax deductions in this manner is basically saying that Australians need to accept a mediocre standard of medicine in the future.”

    “As a GP in remote Australia, it is necessary for me to travel to major centres to be able to attend CPD/Training sessions that are of an appropriate standard to ensure my patients receive the most up to date evidence based care available. If this capping is introduced it may be my and other remote GPs’ patients who come off worst. A very poor decision by the Government when the remotest patients are the sickest and have a huge health gap compared with more regional people. This is geographical discrimination.”

    “We live in an environment where medical professionals are under reasonable pressure to remain skilled and educated, with discussions regarding revalidation firmly now on the table. Thus, we need to be able to attend conferences, subscribe to journals, attend meetings and engage in peer review activities. I thought that necessary expenses incurred in earning your income should be deductible. How can the Federal Government demand that you spend money to remain skilled, accredited and revalidated, and then not allow you to claim these necessary expenses.”

    “As a GP in remote Australia, that has recently started a new practice, CPD will become completely unaffordable. By the time you pay travel to larger regional centres or major cities, accommodation, course costs and then add a locum fee, you come out well behind as it is. CPD is however vital, not only to keep up to date with developments and refresh your knowledge, but also for the much needed debriefing and exchanging of experiences that remote GPs can't do at home. The Government probably does not realise that the only way to have time off where you actually relax is to be away from your remote community, and how much it takes for rural GPs to stay up to date so we can continue to provide quality care in our rural regions! If I reduced my training to a bare minimum, and did REST as an emergency course, and everything else as free webinars, it would still cost me $2600 + travel and accommodation! I would also burn out and not serve my remote community for much longer. CPD away is like food, water and shelter for a remote GP. This idea is completely outrageous, and I am disappointed that the Government has even considered it. Forgive my ignorance, but do our Ministers do CPD? Do they stay under $2000? Thank you AMA for defending our basic needs.”

    “Australia has a small population that is situated a long way from other countries. The up to date information required to remain current requires attending large international conferences. The cost of flights, registration and accommodation is far in excess of $2000. The situation is worse for regional and remote doctors, who spend much more on international flights and frequently need to catch flights to attend local/national meetings. A cap will act as a disincentive to maintain learning and will disproportionately affect regional and remote doctors.”

    “As a surgical trainee, I have already spent $6500 for training fees to the RACS, $6400 for examination fees, and I have two interstate conferences that I am obliged to attend as part of my training - that is since January this year. I pay approximately 20 per cent of my annual income to compulsory training fees, and now this is added to the equation.”

    “I am a PGY3 surgical resident trying to develop a breadth of experience and strengthen my application to surgical training. In order to do this, since graduation, I have undertaken a postgraduate diploma of surgical anatomy ($11000) and several RACS courses ($2500 - $3500 each), attended conferences, and completed adult and paediatric advanced life support courses ($500 & $2000 respectively). While I don't complain about spending money on my continued education, I can only just afford these expenses with the tax deductions, given my resident salary. I'm not sure how I will manage these expenses in the future once I add College training fees and exam fees.”

    “As a registrar in two specialties (Infectious Diseases and Microbiology), I have significant costs related to self-education every year. I estimate my costs to be over $5000 p.a. and some years this has been even higher. 2014 is expected to be an expensive year for self-education as I sit major exams in one of my specialty fields and try to complete a Masters course, which is designed to improve my research ability.”

    “As a remote rural GP, my CPD expenses are in the region of $6000-8000 per year. A $2000 per year cap on this will make my training unsustainable. I do not abuse the self-education system by claiming overseas holiday junkets, my training is critical for competence in the work I do and for regional hospital credentialing. Unhappy.”

    “As trainees, our workplace simply cannot afford to fund the educational experiences that are required to keep us up to date in our chosen fields. Therefore, work-related costs already take up a large proportion of overall income. Any tax deduction is much needed.

    If the Government decides to cap this deduction, it will force me to reconsider and therefore limit my educational experiences and will eventually impact on the quality of care that I provide to my patients. I will not vote for any government that tries to introduce these changes.”

    “As an emergency doctor in a public hospital, I attend 2-4 courses or conferences a year to keep my critical care skills up to date. All of these cost between $2000 - $4000 each unless they are in my home town, which most aren't. I fly economy and stay with friends or relatives if possible. While I can understand the Government wanting a cap in this current fiscal environment, $2000 is out of touch with the cost of our ongoing medical education.”

    “As a part-time GP with kids, education will have to be compromised, as it's not financially viable. Tempting to leave the profession!”

    “As a rural GP proceduralist providing ED, anaesthetics, surgery and advanced obstetrics including Caesarian sections, it will be impossible to comply with all the College and JCC requirements for accreditation within the tax deductible limit. So I reduce my services to my rural community and who suffers...not the Federal Government, but my isolated rural patients. Again rural Australians will be treated as second class Australians.”

    “As a clinician-researcher who works part time in public practice and private practice with part of my time spent in research, this will virtually sound the death knell for my research career. I'm currently working on a number of projects in neurodegenerative disorders that require me to travel each year to a number of overseas conferences (there are simply no local conferences dedicated to these groups of disorders), and am involved in human and animal work and drug trials. If this goes ahead, it will make it virtually impossible to grow my knowledge in these areas, to form collaborations, and to develop joint research projects. I see a future where the world's clinicians and researchers will be regularly meeting and swapping ideas, whereas Australian researchers will become more and more isolated, our competitiveness will drop, and our involvement in new medication or treatment trials will fade to nothing. There will always be a need for clinician-researchers to drive clinical research. If a government ever wanted to kill this aspect of medical research, they've found a fantastic way to do it.”

    “As a teaching GP near retiring age I may be forced to work out the next triennium without much further education and then retire. I know many are of the same mind as me.”

    “Working part-time as a GP trainee, with a preschooler and a baby is not very lucrative after paying for childcare! But I want to remain a part of our profession and continue to contribute. College membership, textbooks and exam fees will still have to be paid. Tax-deductibility was making me feel better about that.”

    “As a rural based specialist it is important to maintain competence on many fronts including my specialty. Conferences are the ideal way of doing this. The EASD diabetic meeting is an efficient way of updating in diabetes. Unless one is subsidised by pharma, which has ethical considerations, $2000 is not going to cover a fraction of the cost. This does not take into account journals etc. Rural physicians have to travel and measures like this have the potential to negatively impact on putting physicians on the ground in rural areas.”

    “I am a GP registrar. It now costs over $7000 to sit all the RACGP exams in my own city. This does not include any travel or accommodation costs. It costs far more than $2000 to even attend courses in my own city for fundamental education and training. A dermatoscopy or skin cancer medicine course costs anywhere between $1850 and $3000. A certificate in Sexual and Reproductive Health costs $2500. The proposed $2000 cap would significantly affect the ability of GPs to maintain self-education and professional development and would jeopardise the quality of primary care in Australia. “

    1 May 2013

    CONTACT: John Flannery 02 6270 5477 / 0419 494 761
    Kirsty Waterford 02 6270 5464 / 0427 209 753

    Follow the AMA Media on Twitter: http://twitter.com/ama_media
    Follow the AMA President on Twitter: http://twitter.com/amapresident

    add new comment
    Comments

    This is absurd!
    Submitted by Kirsten Price (not verified) on May 1, 2013 - 15:05
    $2000 barely covers the fees to register for a local conference.
    But what truly galls me is that the public sector supports Staff Specialists to the tune of $20K annually.
    If the federal governemnt can't afford to support private doctors in thier efforts to undertake CPD, then how can the State Governments afford it?
    And of course, if we raise our fees to cover increased costs we will be howled down as greedy Doctors
    Perhaps the answer is less CPD ???.
     
  22. surfboy

    surfboy Active Member

    Also, we have to recognise the severe impact of this legislation upon surgical registrars with the Australian College of Podiatric Surgeons.

    Many of these students must travel overseas to obtain clinical experiences.

    Under these new tax changes, only $2000 may be tax deducted in a given year.

    As per the AMA news website, the impact extends to doctors undertaking physician training. These trainee physicians can no longer deduct the many associated costs of their physician training.
     
  23. Paul Bowles

    Paul Bowles Well-Known Member

    No what I am clearly suggesting is "education" is education and NOT done solely for the reason of reducing ones taxable income.

    Where did I once suggest people "evade" tax? Surfboy your argument and comments much like other threads you participate in are inflammatory and argumentative.
    Education is performed to keep up with clinical standards, improve competency and further specialize in the professional field of your choice.

    Education is not done solely for the reason of reducing ones taxable income.

    The ability to claim education as a tax expense is a side argument. Did you become a "Podiatrist" because it was a good tax benefit to you? Do you have children because its a good tax benefit to you? Do you buy a house becuase its a good tax benefit for you? Primarily no.....The benefits associated with any of those and your taxable income is purely a side effect.

    Care to explain why you may think that my selection of continuing education based on my professional needs may be "ludicrous" or "dangerous"? If anything I would suggest you "selecting" your education based on the amount of taxable income it may reduce for you is closer to your truth.

    I was a surgical registrar with the ACPS for 7+ years. Not once did I even think about the tax benefits associated with it - in fact I would argue there probably weren't any real tax benefits anyhow! Using the AMA opinion as an example doesnt do much to strengthen your argument - they are merely a "union" acting on behalf of their members best interests. Much in the same way the AMA's solution to Australia being the 3 highest medical costing country in the world was to "PAY DOCTORS MORE". Good stuff...

    Can I assume because of your tax concerns surfboy you wont be at the Sydney Diabetic Foot Conference in May, or the APodC conference in June or the Sports Medicine Australia Conference in Phuket in October? Because you certainly weren't at the Diabetic Foot Global Conference in Los Angeles recently (and if you were myself and the other Aussies must have missed you) - I'd really like to put a face to the forum name!
     
  24. surfboy

    surfboy Active Member

    Well, actually, Paul.. From the above threads, I am not the only Podiatrist whom takes issue with your "pearls of wisdom".

    NOBODY is suggesting that education should be done solely for the purpose of reducing one's taxable income.

    Simply, as a regulated profession, we are required and expected to participate in ongoing professional education. This is an essential part of our employment, and one which I and others enjoy. Whether you like it or not Paul, this is a work-related activity and should be tax deductible.

    This thread is purely about the Government's decision to try and find money to cover their huge debts, by limiting the amount of self-education expenses to $2000 per person, per year.

    It has NOTHING to do with people wanting to engage in educational activities to reduce their tax. It is about a legitimate work related expense.

    Your stance also completely disregards particularly those Podiatrists in rural areas, whom often have to travel/fly great distances to attend educational conferences/activities at great expense. Why should they have to meet these expenses out of their own pockets? $2000 is a pathetic limit!!! Congratulations to the AMA!!!
     
  25. Paul Bowles

    Paul Bowles Well-Known Member

    My pearls of wisdom? You created the thread asking for comment - or did you just want to shove your opinion down everyone's throat? I don't know what I have ever done to you for you to display this sort of aggression but its really unwarranted. You don't like my opinion - I am happy to stop posting just say the word.

    As others have stated in this thread there is more than one way to skin that cat and please don't be condescending to me about facilitating education in rural areas!

    Your argument is flawed because you "assume" education should be a tax benefit to you. In reality if your motives were pure and for the profession you might be jumping up and down about the severe lack of government Podiatry services in rural areas, the lack of training positions in clinical placements for Podiatrists in Australia, the lack of public podiatry and shortfall in government funding presently in that sector, the fact that private health insurance rebates to Podiatrists haven't increased in the last 3 years where there has been an overall 15% increase in premiums paid by patients, the lack of medicare extended to high risk patients where there is a limb lost every 3 mins in this country!

    How about the 0.5 percent increase in Medicare levy to pay for the NDIS? The goverment is trying to cover its tracks there as well but you don't seem to as passionate about that as you are about saving yourself a couple of bucks. But really all of that is just diversion from the original topic.

    C'mon surfboy - your motives in this thread are clear - you think you won't be able to reduce your taxable income through "educational" expenses with new legislation. Can you hear the violins playing? :wacko:

    Let me make it clear AGAIN for you. My stance is that education is performed for education purposes NOT solely as a tax benefit. Any benefit able to be obtained by claiming such expenses is merely a bonus. If you are selecting your education merely as a means to reduce your taxable income I suggest you re-think what education you are attending.

    If you simply want to reduce your taxable income why don't you talk to your accountant about leasing some new equipment for your private clinic? Maybe a Porsche? :)

    Would love to know your real name so we can discuss this face to face at the next education event you might attend. I think it would make for an interesting discussion over a beverage or two.

    Will changes to tax legislation STOP me attending any education event I want to - no. Should it? Only if my concern is for the dollar savings value rather than the educational value.

    In saying that have you seen the quality of the education on offer at THE SYDNEY DIABETIC FOOT CONFERENCE? Astounding stuff at Liverpool hospital should be an awesome few days - would love to see you there! In fact I will guarantee you the education at the event put on by Dr Matthew Malone along with the networking ability amongst some of the worlds finest researchers and clinicians will far out weigh the small price tag and inability for you to claim it as a tax deduction!
     
  26. trevor

    trevor Active Member

    Paul,
    The Tax issue is all about choices and you have obviously missed the point or are just unable to understand.

    For some folks continuing education is not about the program but a means to being "best in class" in their area of special interest.
    Meaning that courses and conferences are chosen based upon the material to be presented and the presenter. CPE hours are not part of the equation full stop.

    For others, it is only about 20 hours for the least cost and on a travel budget that stretches to a metro train ticket and a McDonalds hamburger.
    They go to conferences where the course material and the presenters are chosen by others and probably not what is best for their professional development.
    For me this is not what the CPE program is meant to be about.

    My first overseas convention was in Anaheim in the early 1990s long before CPE programs.

    Some of us travel overseas once or twice a year. This costs a lot in both $$ and time.

    What folks here are saying is that if the tax deduction goes away the so does the "Best in class" option and the ability for us to select courses, conventions and presenters that fit our special interest education needs. We will be travelling every other year if we are lucky.

    You did not tell us how you select your CPE courses or what your CPE budget was?

    Have you ever been to an APMA national, no. There is one in Hawaii next year, GO.
    Then will understand what we are upset about.

    Oh, it will be safe for you to go, the tax deduction will be gone by then.
     
  27. surfboy

    surfboy Active Member

    Look Paul, I don't mean to appear aggressive as you suggest. This is not my intention. But Trevor really has perfectly summed up the situation in his above post. With your views posted above it really does make one think that you have missed the point.
     
  28. Paul Bowles

    Paul Bowles Well-Known Member

    So hypothetically along the lines of your discussion above, lets say you wanted to be a Podiatric Surgeon - just because there is no "tax benefit" that is going to sway your career decision?
     
  29. Paul Bowles

    Paul Bowles Well-Known Member

    Its quite possible you have also missed my point. In saying that Trevors response above doesn't solely fit into your original point about posting this.

    Let me ask you a slightly different question Surfboy to the one I asked Trevor above. Lets hypothetically say that "if" that legislation does get put in place and effectively rules out your tax benefit:

    If I offered you the option of studying a Professional Doctorate which upon completion gave you the ability to be a Podiatric Sports Physician and it was going to cost you $100,000 over three years - would you take it? Knowing full well you would have no tax benefit as you think you won't above.
     
  30. LuckyLisfranc

    LuckyLisfranc Well-Known Member

    Gentlemen,

    Let me try and breach the divide here.

    For some people, money is tight and the loss of continuing education tax offsets will have a large impact on their ability to have flexibility to choose where and what type of education they wish to undertake. The outcry from the AMA and medical practitioners is unsurprising, but should be taken with some merit despite the fact they are amongst the most well remunerated professionals in the land.

    Regardless, some will shrug their shoulders and just get on with paying for education that they value and desire, like Paul. They value education at any price, and may put it ahead of other costs in their life.

    For those who are younger, without a house and with university loans to repay, the loss of these tax offsets will probably narrow their choices for continuing education.

    Fortunately in these interesting times of the interweb, there are many cost effective opportunities for ongoing education.

    But I lament that it may discourage many who don't have the means to get good, cost effective, overseas eduation as I have been fortunate to in the past.

    D'frnt stroke for d'frnt folks.

    LL
     
  31. surfboy

    surfboy Active Member

    Thank you LuckyLisfranc. A very balanced post indeed.

    Your points sum up my situation Lisfranc. In my late twenties, with a house mortgage and university HECS loans to repay for two separate degrees and a masters. The loss of the tax offset has narrowed my choices for continuing education, as I am now unable to afford to get overseas education in the areas that interest me. I had hoped to attend the APMA national conference in hawaii next year, but my pockets are not deep enough without access to a tax offset for these educational expenses.

    And no folks, I don't want to watch an overseas conference on my computer from the living room, but thanks.
     
  32. Paul Bowles

    Paul Bowles Well-Known Member

    :boohoo:

    If you get the same people Craig Thompson is working with to set you up an internet donation fund i'll gladly contribute.....

    Then maybe, just maybe you are not in it solely for the benefit of the education as you so persistently keep pointing out! :rolleyes:
     
  33. Boots n all

    Boots n all Well-Known Member

    l have been following this with great interest, l have two sons that have HECS fees and l constantly push them to more CPD than required.

    But l dont understand the need to attend an expensive OS conference at all.

    For the cost of your Hawaii trip you could do a whole year of local conferences and still have change to pay down your HECS or mortgage.

    For me, most of the conferences workshops l attend l walk away with things to try the next day, which if they are good will make you more money in turn.

    So dont go to Hawaii, come to sunny Queensland for IPS 13, help the local economy, save a fortune and gain some needed CPD.


    20 July 2013

    Non member AUD $825 or Early Bird Rate AUD $715
     
  34. Paul Bowles

    Paul Bowles Well-Known Member

    All the extremely positive talk from the last one in Sydney has me hooked, sad I missed it - i'll be trying to schedule some time off to attend in Qld!

    Education is about education.
     
  35. trevor

    trevor Active Member

    Lets look at CPD costs.
    If you live in Sydney and go to the Diabetes seminar at Liverpool.
    Cost to get to the registration desk from your home.
    Rail pass $22
    Mc Donalds breakfast along the way $8.95.
    Total business expense $30.95

    If you live somewhere else in NSW like Armidale for instance you would travel the day before.
    Airfare $315
    Rail pass $22
    Ibis budget motel inc b/fast $295
    Dinner on the 29th $58
    Total business expense $690.

    Lets look at the costs of going to the APMA in Las Vagas in July this year .
    Air fare Armidale to Las Vagas $1800 return.
    Registration $495
    Total business expense $2395 or $2095 if you had booked the conference before 30th March

    Compare that with the cost of APODCs national in Sydney
    Registration $1500
    Airfare Armidale to Sydney return $630
    Total business expense $2130.


    The media reported recently that Australias hotel costs are the highest in the world and Australians pay more for everything else they buy.

    If you plan on shopping for new clothes whilst you are in the US and go to Macys, Nordstroms, Nordstrom rack or Ross sales you will replace your entire wardrobe for about 30% of what you would expect to pay here.
    Ladies no one else here will have that same outfit.

    The National in Hawaii next year will be a cheaper option for a lot of people than an OZ conference, but it all depends where you live and the conference locations.
    You just have to do the sums and factor everything in. ( include wardrobe shopping)
     
  36. Paul Bowles

    Paul Bowles Well-Known Member

    I just don't see where this thread is going...... You would prefer to go to APMA instead of APodC? Go for it - who is stopping you? Or go to SDFCon 2013 and save a TON (you conveniently left off the registration price of that one!)
     
  37. Boots n all

    Boots n all Well-Known Member

    Nice layout of figures there Trevor, even if slightly incomplete.

    So IPS '13 is looking very cost effective with the early Bird Rate AUD $715.

    Paul if you can make it, your first drink is on me:drinks.

    We have just got the go ahead to give a tour and run some workshops in the new purpose built Pedorthic workshop at the Uni, with its shiny new Jos America equipment:D
     
  38. surfboy

    surfboy Active Member

    Terrific post Trevor. Very well set out. And my wife will love the wardrobe factor hahahha!!!
    As many have stated, this is all about CHOICE. And the government's efforts to limit our choice. Sure the pedorthics conference I am sure is very informative, but it is not
    something that I am personally interested in. CHOICE.
     
  39. Craig Payne

    Craig Payne Moderator

    Articles:
    8
  40. Paul Bowles

    Paul Bowles Well-Known Member

    The AMA.......yes well ummm.....says it all really. Maybe headline should read: CPD Tax Plan: "Devastating" "some" doctors and "some" Podiatrists say.
     
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